Another good argument. I'm with Pyritt, I'm outta this one too. I honestly believed that Al was satan, but Max made a very compelling case. I just now think that the Raiders players, as well as their owner, sucks. They all need help. And from here on out, I'm just praying that we SOMEHOW pull things together. Maybe Brooks being hurt is a blessing in disguise.

1- What does Charles Woodson have to do with anything? He was just another cornerback that Al Davis drafted in the first round. A point I've made so many times and yet you still don't understand. He wasn't resigned for one main reason. He became injury prone! Even if that weren't the case, do you honestly think for one second that Woodson would have resigned with the Raiders after the feud that went down if Al wanted him to come back. Charles wanted out because he didn't like the stupid organizational decisions that were being made over the last few years just like Porter now. Also, what was the reason we were in such bad cap trouble last year. Maybe because of the huge OWNERSHIP mistake of allowing Woodson to get payed 10 million in one season. That sooooo could have been easily avoided. Everyone knows Woodson and his agent out smarted Mr. Davis.

2-Why waste a pick on another QB? You talk like Walter was a top 10 first round pick. He was a 3rd round pick that we really know nothing about. I don't know if he will be great or not (I hope he will be) but you have to have more insurance than that. Take the Chargers for example. They took a risk in letting Brees go to play Rivers. Even though Rivers was a top first round pick they still drafted a good QB in Charlie Whitehurst in the 3rd round because Rivers hasn't proven anything. Right now, Rivers, Whitehurst, and Walter are equal in how much they have proven on the NFL level. If you don't have any "proven" QB's on your roster and you have a chance to draft a top blue chip NFL QB prospect in round 1, then you take it. Most owners in the league would agree with me. Oh, except for AL Davis. The point of this entire debate I'm trying to make is that Al wants to win now so he drafts the guy who can give instant help (like Huff) rather than drafting for the future. Maybe Walter's turn out great. Maybe he doesn't and Leinart/Cutler does. Either way we would be in better shape as far as the future is concerned if both were on the roster. That would increase the chances that we would get that big time franchise QB.

3-We agree that LB was a huge issue going into the offseason but the secondary? Young DB kids aren't playing well because of just that, they are young. It's not that there is no talent. So let's draft another young kid like Huff and he'll make everything better? Yea, right. Hell, with all the 1st round DB's that Al selected over the years are secondary should be the greatest of all time by now. Also for you to say that the D-side of the ball is are strongest side isn't saying much. Last I checked we gave up 55 combined points in just two games. Yea, you are right, Al should get all the credit for that.

Ok, Ok. Let's all just relax. Let me pause for a moment and say that I respect you Maximus and you clearly care about the Raiders and know much about football. I enjoy these debates that we have and look forward to future ones. It's fun and interesting. It in no way is meant to cause any anger. I do not see myself as a stubborn man and I am open to new thoughts. I have no problem changing my opinions if I hear an argument, different than mind, that makes sense to me. As for Al Davis. Let it be known that I have always been a huge Al Davis supporter, winners or loosers. It was only recently that my view of Al has changed. I also mentioned that fact in prior posts because for the first time, I can't make sense of any of the moves that the Raiders have made recently. Blame can only be put on the man in total power of the Team. Al Davis. Ok, pause is over...

4-When you say that Gruden made a lot of important decisions for the team like drafting Tui you are right. Unfortunately, for you, you make a piont in my favor once again. Everyone knows that the Gruden era was the first time since Al put on the silver and black that Davis gave up control. It's also the last time we were winners. Gruden ran the west coast offense (opposite to Al's vertical passing game), Made draft day decisions like Tui and made huge FA pickups that Al never in his life would have made. For example, Gruden was the reason NFL MVP Rich Gannon became QB. Gannon never had the big play arm that Davis desires and the team was built by Gruden with Vets, not speed. Rice, Tim Brown...ect were very slow WR's who were masters of the Gruden system that got it done. The first Art Shell tenure was the end of the sucess of the Al Davis system. Before Gruden when AL held total control we suffered through many loosing seasons with the so called "Vertical" passing game. With big arm QB's like Jeff George. Speedy WR's like James Jett and the Rocket. Finally, coaches like Bugal and White who allowed Davis to dictate what offense would be ran and the players that were brought in to run it. Then came the Gruden era where Al gave up control for more modern Ideas and thoughts. Now Al is back in control during the post Gruden era where it is no cowincidence that with Al back in control, we are loosing once again. With the so called "Vertical" Passing game back. With big arm QB's like Collins, Brooks, and Walters. Speedy WR's like Moss and WhitSHIThead. And fianlly, coaches like Turner and Shell who allow Davis total control. I can't believe you actually think this is all one big cowincidence . Like you think I've never seen Al's trademark offense before. You will probably make the argument that Bill Callahan ran a modern offense with the Raiders that did not work. I will say that Callahan is the last coach who got us back to the SuperBowl. He lost a lot of his games in his second season as coach because the very OLD vet team finally hit the wall. I mean we had some great SuperBowl runs with that older than dirt team and you knew eventually, they would show their age. Callahan was fired for no other reason then Al was looking for if and any reason to take back control of his team. Callahan never should have been let go or at least not that quickly. I'd hate to admit it, but I have something in common with Porter. We both wanted Martz. Even if he was just are OC. Martz runs the modern and future system. Very similar to the Callahan system. Look at there records when Callahan had the talent in his first year as head coach and Martz's winning percentage/ring speaks for itself. But alas, Martz would want what Gruden had. Control!! For the remaing years of a great man's life, Davis will never give that up again. For that reason we will continue to loose. I guess you have to give credit to the captain who wants to go down with his ship.

I have to say one thing here though. I believe that Callahans success only came as a direct result of taking over Grudens offense. During his second year as head coach, when he had to run things his way, Callahan stunk on ice. I agree that Al is too controlling, but Callahan should have tried to run his own system. That's why we lost the super bowl. Gruden was "playing" Gannon in practice before the SB, saying "Gannon is going to do this, and then that, and then after that, he's going to do this."

You beat me Chris, I was going to make that exact point. That first season with Cally, we were runnng on Grudens fumes. Callahan just happened to be in the drivers seat.

You guys are right. It was Gruden's team that Callahan ran but it doesn't change the fact that we won under the Gruden/Callahan era. Whether gruden was coach and Callahan was OC or Callahan was coach doesn't matter. It was a time when control was not completly in AL's hands and we won as a direct result of that. I will say (though we are starting to get off topic) that Gruden's system was a west coast Offense that mixed the run and pass about 50/50. You can't say that Callahan's first 2 years as coach was even close to that. Callahan had a Martz type style that passed almost 90% of the time. Sure it was Gruden's players. Sure Callahan was Gruden's student. That's what killed us in the superbowl. Gruden knew are team inside and out. But Callahan's offense led us to a superbowl. Gruden's didn't. Callahan's offense was ranked #1 in the NFL. Gruden's never was. Finally, Gannon was given the chance under Callahan to unleash his game what helped him achieve MVP status. That never happened with Gruden. The point is that Callahan and Gruden were directly connected and Al wanted them out because of that reason. You can make the case that Martz, in his first year as coach, only got his team to a superbowl because he took over Vermiel's great team. However, don't forget he was the OC of that Superbowl Champ team and dispite loosing the superbowl the next year as head coach, he was given the chance to coach for quite a few years and prove he could win with "his" players such as Mark Bulger. The guy had his team in the playoffs every year. Callahan was never given a fair chance to prove himself like that. No coach does under Al Davis. All of us can agree (even Maximus) that going through new coaching staffs year after year had a negative effect on our team. There is no one else you can blame for that but Al Davis.

Well, I can't say that's the only reason Callahan was ousted. If you remember, his players hated him. I thought that there was gunna be a walkout over that . Callahan had no control over that team, and he blew it in the SB by playing the exact game that Gruden used the year before. That, in addition to the fact that the team was so good before, and stunk so bad the next year. I'm sure Al thought, "Well, here you go. I let them have a chance to have it their way, and they blew it. Now we play my way." And it's been losses ever since.

I can agree with that